Stories in Life. On the Radio with Mark and Joe.
Mark and Joe interview people with stories that affirm your belief in the goodwill, courage, determination, commitment and vision of everyday people.
Our primary goal is that, through another person's story, you will find meaningful connection no matter your place in life. We intend that the stories we select will be inspiring and maybe help you laugh, cry, think or change your mind about something important in your life.
Stories in Life. On the Radio with Mark and Joe.
One Backpack, Maps and the Open Road - How Travel Built My Faith In Humanity
What would you learn if you crossed international borders with only a 26-liter backpack and a belief that most people are kind? We sit down with friend Dean Fromm, a Colorado based traveler who’s visited 109 countries, to unpack how light gear, slow plans, and open eyes can turn the world into a classroom. From Ecuador’s Amazon, where a landslide an innovative act of collective problem-solving, to nights in Beirut under rolling blackouts, Dean shows how generosity often lives where our news cycles don’t look.
We dig into practicals—e-visas, passports, research routines, and why maps reveal more than roads. Dean chooses regions and builds trips around terrain, history, and the people he meets along the way. He makes the case for the Middle East and Asia as welcoming, life-affirming places, sharing vivid stories from Lebanon, Armenia, and an unforgettable solo entry into Gaza in the mid-90s that led to two days of hospitality from people with very little to spare. It’s not a blind faith; it’s a risk-aware posture shaped by real mishaps like a fall near Lake Baikal that turned into a lesson on resilience, recovery, and listening to your limits.
If you’ve ever wondered how to travel with intention, Dean’s playbook is simple and demanding: pack less, stay longer, talk to strangers, and let maps guide your understanding of why cities exist where they do. Let local food, markets, and music become your syllabus. Say yes when your gut says yes, and keep your boundaries when it doesn’t. You’ll come home with fewer certainties and a deeper, steadier confidence in people—and in your own ability to navigate the unknown.
Enjoy the conversation, then share it with a friend who needs a nudge to book that first trip. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: where did a stranger’s kindness change your route?
Welcome to Stories in Life. You're on the radio with Mark and Joe. We share stories that affirm your belief in the goodwill, courage, determination, commitment, and vision of everyday people.
Mark Wolak. Host:Our goal is that through another person's story, you may find connection at your place in life. The stories we select will be inspiring and maybe help you laugh, cry, think, or change your mind about something important in your life.
Joe Boyle, Host:Join us for this episode of Stories in Life.
Mark Wolak. Host:I would like you to share with our listeners today about that. What drives you to do that?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I I think it's been earned or built up through the years, you know. I mean, I've toughened up or I've learned to I've learned to have faith in humanity, I guess, is as simple as that, you know, and uh and I don't know what else more to say, I guess, if it's really that simple. That I've I've gone seen enough things and gone through enough awkward experiences that I've just learned that everything works out in the end, and just grin and bear it and the good will come out of it, and it always does.
Joe Boyle, Host:So this might be a tough question, and if you don't want to answer it, you don't have to. If you can't answer it, I understand. But from like a geopolitical point of view, how does traveling to the Muslim world say differ from you know traveling through Western Europe?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, um I honestly think the Islamic world in general are far more generous and welcoming than anything you'll encounter in Western Europe. Uh it's in their DNA, it's in their soul, it's it's it's who they are.
Joe Boyle, Host:Today, Mark and I welcome an old friend I grew up with in our hometown of New Home, Minnesota. He's a longtime resident of Boulder, Colorado, and possesses a strong passion for world travel, which we hope to hear some stories about today. We welcome Dean Fromm to our show. Hi, Dean.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Hey, gentlemen, thank you again for inviting me. Appreciate it.
Joe Boyle, Host:Great to have you. So let's just start things off with uh what originally drew you to Boulder from Newall, Minnesota? Tell us that.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I right after high school, I actually went to California first and was living there for a couple years. But I kind of knew from day one, I was in L the LA area, I kind of knew from day one it wasn't for me. Um and always had a hankering for outdoor activity, so I kind of realized, in fact, I had picked up a climbing magazine and saw that a lot of articles were about Boulder, Colorado, so I figured, hey, that maybe is a place for me. And ultimately that's where I ended up going in 19 summer of 83. I moved there and have been here ever since. Wow, that's great. Yeah.
Joe Boyle, Host:And you you you hike, you you climb, you do all that sort of thing, right?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, I mean, I don't climb as actively as I used to, but I was pretty obsessed about it for many years and and still do hiking quite a bit and get out in the outdoors. There's a lot to do and a lot of fly fishing and things like that. So it's a great environment. Uh it's a great community, you know, big enough and interesting enough to live in and have a lot of activity and yet have out have the wilderness at your back, so to speak. So it's a popular place for a lot of people.
Mark Wolak. Host:The outdoors and uh stories of being outdoor are very popular on our podcast.
Dean Fromm, Guest:So yeah, I listened to I think the PCT couple that did the PCT. I listened to that one, it was very good.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, we the one thing we forgot to ask those two was how many pairs of shoes did you go through?
Dean Fromm, Guest:I'm sure they went through many.
Joe Boyle, Host:So there you are in Boulder. You're enjoying your your uh relative youth still, your climbing, your hiking, your biking. When did that wander lust for world travel kick in?
Dean Fromm, Guest:You know, I think I've always kind of been curious. I I distinctly remember as a kid hanging out in our living room, looking at well, a lot of people aren't familiar with them anymore, but world book encyclopedias. I think we all grew up with them and always been fascinated by looking at the countries and the flags and the outfits and uniforms they wore. And so I think it was always kind of there. I would say that was a big part of it. And then I'm I'm kind of an obsessed with maps. So I've always been studied maps my whole life and probably a little bit to a little bit neurotic about cartography and that sort of thing. So it's I think it's kind of always been in me. It took a while after leaving New Home and you know to finally have enough time and money to start traveling the world. But once I started, I knew it was no turning back. It's something I wanted to do as much as I could. And so that was kind of the start, I think.
Joe Boyle, Host:So, what was your first trip abroad?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, other than you know, little Johnson to Canada with the family and in Mexico. Um, I mean, the big first big one, I spent two months in, I think it was 1988 in uh Ecuador. And I went down there partially to climb mountains, but pretty quickly realized that I enjoyed more of the cultural experience of it all. So I, you know, I had there for two months. So most of the time I just hopped around there, a little bit of Peru, but mostly around Ecuador. Ecuador is a relatively small country, so I was able to see uh pretty much most nooks and crannies of it. So and I along that well while I was there, I knew that was it was gonna be what I was gonna spend a lot of my time, the rest of my life doing, you know. So yeah, it was an exciting time. I learned a lot about travel and just a lot about a lot of different things uh on that particular trip back then.
Joe Boyle, Host:So it wet your appetite.
Dean Fromm, Guest:It to it totally wet my appetite, and you know, it was just so many great experiences. I was thinking about earlier, I was I don't want to throw this one experience that I had when I was there out, but one of the things I did was went down into the Amazon basin from this high from the Andes, so you dropped down quite quickly, and I was down in this village called Puyo, and there's only one road in, one road out, and I was there for a couple days, and when the day I was leaving, there was a major landslide, and it kind of wiped the road out. So I was no presumably no way out. But uh what happened was everybody started climbing, you know, cars on both sides. They would people would climb across the walk across the landslide and exchange car keys and bus keys and exchange vehicles and names, and then we would just get into somebody else's vehicle and go and take it the other direction. And I thought, you know, that would never happen in America, obviously. But uh, you know, I thought that was a pretty cool experience. I mean that one that one always stuck with me.
Mark Wolak. Host:That level of trust, yeah. Yeah, also just the innovation in that, you know, taking and solving it right there.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah, it was it was fun, it was an interesting experience to say the least.
Mark Wolak. Host:So did you uh make it to the Galapagos while you were there?
Dean Fromm, Guest:No, I've never been to the Galapagos.
Mark Wolak. Host:Oh, it's still on your list, still on your list.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah. You know, I like to keep a few things on on my list on my list. Yeah, yeah, I don't want to run out of everything.
Mark Wolak. Host:So yeah, we had another guest who's traveled uh to Peru and has done some volunteer work there. So that's why I was curious if you did that, because that was one of the things on his bucket list.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, it's gotten a little more complicated get getting there these days, obviously, just because of the demand of people wanting to go there. But yeah, I'd love to go. Someday I will.
Mark Wolak. Host:People that are listening are gonna be wondering you know, how do you navigate all these countries? Um you must have all your current passport paperwork, everything dialed up pretty tight.
Dean Fromm, Guest:You know, it's pretty simple, especially now. I mean, travel has changed a lot since the advent of internet and cell phones. You know, the back in the day before all that, it was a little more complicated. You had to send your passport off to some you know office, embassy office somewhere in Washington DC or whatever, and hope it made it back in the mail with a stamp in it. Now you can do everything online, you know, get e-visas and and such. So it's not so complicated. Um, yeah, my passport, I mean, I've uh I think I'm my sixth or fifth passport.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, not too many people have traveled uh nearly to that extent. Uh so it it's it's a remarkable thing that you've accomplished.
Joe Boyle, Host:Yeah, the you the company is small at at that level.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah, I only I only know one person personally who's been to more places than me. He's a good friend of mine.
Joe Boyle, Host:Dean, what's your selection process? How do you uh pick the next place you're gonna go, or or do you look ahead and say, uh the I'm gonna these three trips are my next three, or how does that work?
Dean Fromm, Guest:That's a good question. I mean, I'm not sure quite how to answer that. I mean, I guess since to some degree I want to be go everywhere. I so I try to visit regions. I think of it in regions, first of all, you know, like I you know, I want to go to the Middle East or I want to go to Southeast Asia or whatever, Central Asia or Eastern Europe. So I kind of look at it in that regard, I think. I'm always studying maps, I'm kind of a map freak, and and and yeah, it just it just all kind of falls together. So you know, at this point now I just kind of have to kind of pick the countries I haven't been to and hopscotch across the world to get to them, but that's part of the fun, I guess.
Joe Boyle, Host:Is there a sweet spot of time that you like to uh uh extend your trips to?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Okay, I you asked me about the sweet time you're asking how long I want to would be like to be gone. Yeah, well you your your trip how you know I've I've been very fortunate to have a job jobs that have allowed me quite a bit of time off. So the shortest trips are usually uh a month. Um longer I've been on several six-month long trips. Um last year I was gone for six or seven months. Um you know, now that I'm retired, I can travel a little bit longer. But yeah, it's as long as I can take, as long as I can get out, I'm happy to do it.
Mark Wolak. Host:So I know there are listeners that are gonna be wondering, how do you pack for this, Dean? And my and you know, tell us just a little bit, what's your strategy for packing when you take off for even a month?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I think people most people are shocked at how little I bring. I travel with a 26-liter pack, which is really no more than most people carry in the day pack as you're walking down the street, you know, much more bigger than a book bag. So and I think I've learned that to pack light being a climber and backpacker, you know, I just live very the bare minimum, which basically means I'm washing clothes every so you wash your clothes every so often.
Mark Wolak. Host:What was that?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I mean, I mean you know, because I travel so light, I've been I've I'm just constantly c washing my clothes and I just carry very little. Um, you know, I mean I could go it's such a small amount, I could really literally go down everything I have. It's that that little. I just don't think you need much. I think it's very encumbering to have too much stuff. It slows you down, it makes you miss flights, makes you, you know, having to put your luggage on the top of buses when you'd rather just have it in your lap. It makes life a lot easier.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah. So you've got you've got your pack and what you're wearing, and uh and then you take off.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah. I carry the same pack, the same I I I have a specific clip travel clothing. Whether I'm going for three days or six months, I is nothing changes. Same amount.
Joe Boyle, Host:Do you prefer to travel alone? I know most of your trips have been all by yourself. And is is that your secret to being able to travel the way you do? Or on that a little bit.
Dean Fromm, Guest:I mean, I yeah, I just I certainly I would say yeah, 90% of my travels I have been alone, but many times I I meet up with other travelers along the way, and you you hop around. I've and we got a whole list of people I'd written down here of friends I have all around the world. Um and I've traveled with other people. I you know, a few years ago, or about five years ago, I met this gal Laura in Hawaii on my way back from a six-month trip. And she lives in St. Paul now, but she and I have now traveled Vietnam for a month, Sri Lanka for three weeks. Uh other friends, Will William, who lives in Hong Kong, I've traveled with him extensively and many other people. So I am not always alone. And like I said, I often hook up with people while I'm on the road and you might hook up with them for a day or two or three. But you know, I I think when you're traveling alone, it makes you a little more approachable by the locals. If you know if you're in a group, then the locals tend not to seek you out or to talk to you. Um, but I it also makes you a little more vulnerable, I guess. You know, I don't have somebody watching your back. So there's challenges that go kind of goes both ways.
Mark Wolak. Host:Uh you must have a huge network of people that you've met over the past however number of years that you've traveled. What is it like to have a global network of friends and people that you've met?
Dean Fromm, Guest:It's fantastic. I I can say it enough, you know. I and most of them I'm connected using Facebook, which you know is pretty common. But uh it's it's wonderful to have people I can reach out, where there's I mean, I could name 30, 40 countries where I have friends that are close enough that I can communicate with and talk to and uh share stories with. And uh yeah, it's a fantastic, it's a big part of the experience, of course, is you know, it really gets helps you to get to know their culture better and and also get you to realize how the small the world really is and how much we're all in it in it for the same thing, you know. So yes, I cherish them.
Joe Boyle, Host:There's not one way to do things, there's a lot of different ways to live.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Absolutely, but the end game is everybody wants their kids to be happy and be well fed, you know, it's pretty simple.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, you know, that's the one thing I I don't want to go away from this too far because uh Joe and I have talked to men and we've had concerns about young men and how isolated they are. And so, you know, if you think about uh you're you're you're in an age cohort, but you probably have friends of all ages across the world.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I'm somewhat young and hard and so uh yeah, I have many younger friends as well. Yeah, all age groups for sure. For sure.
Joe Boyle, Host:That kind of plays into my next question, which was uh what have you learned about yourself during all this traveling?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I mean, I think it forced me to become a little bit more outgoing than I instinctively am. You know, I I think I am kind of a loner in such to some degree, but it's forced me to to reach outside that box and and I I think that's helped me a lot, make made me more sociable person, which I think is good for all of us. I would say that would be the thing I've learned the most and benefited the most from.
Joe Boyle, Host:Open the new friendships, that sort of thing. Yep.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, for sure, for sure. For sure. Yeah, it's been it's been a great experience in that regard.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah. You you've traveled so much, it's probably not even fair to ask this question, but what do you have like um do you have like favorites, favorite places in the world, or is that is that even too much to ask you? Or or the most fascinating, maybe?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, you know, I get that's one of the questions I get asked all the time. And I you know it's a little hard to answer, but if I had to pick a handful of countries, I would I would start off by saying regions. I think my favorite region of the world to travel is in the Middle East, which is kind of contradictory to what most Americans would probably think. Um, or Southeast Asia. I mean, I'm a big fan of Asia in general, uh, anywhere in Asia is big, but I mean some of my favorite countries, I would say Lebanon. Um, some obscure countries, probably the what's some of the countries that have probably suffered the most. Lebanon, Armenia. I was recently there a year ago, just unbelievably fell in love with Armenia. Uh another one I think is really fascinating and is and should be visited more as Oman. So, you know, not your normal places, but yeah, you know, I Lebanon, I tell anybody, put put it on, you know, obviously it's not a safe place right now, but put it on your list. It's amazing.
Joe Boyle, Host:So did the people of those regions surprise you as far as uh, you know, their friendliness, openness, uh in the exactly, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Dean Fromm, Guest:All the above. I mean, you know, I've used Lebanon and Armenia examples. They were both just unbelievably friendly people. And they've lived, you know, they've they've had such tragic histories, both those countries, that I think it's learned it's taught them to live to the fullest today, you know, and so they and they do. Lebanon is just unbelievable. The food there, the people, they party, they love, they have fun. Uh they just they're just very outgoing. Um yeah, I mean, I could tell many stories about my I was there almost, I guess, three almost a month long. Experience there with many wild experiences. And it's a very small country, but it was, yeah, fell in love with Lebanon.
Joe Boyle, Host:Well, maybe if I do ever go there, I'll have to go with you then.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, oh I'm all for it. Yeah, it's a tough place to travel, you know. I mean, they have problems, there's power outages. I mean, when I arrived, actually with, you know, the funny story is they don't allow anybody to enter Lebanon who they suspect has ever been to Israel. And so I got there, I landed, and I was at the immigration office waiting for my stamp to get in. And they pulled me to the side, and the guy looked at me. He said, You've been to he after he paged through my passport, and of course there's a zillion stamps in it, and he looked at me and he says, You've been to Israel. And I lied to him. I said, No, no, I've never been to Israel. And he looked at me, he said, No, I think you've been to Israel. And I'm like, No, no, I haven't. And he took my passport back office and came back five, 10 minutes later. And he sat down and he's pulled out a stamp. He stamped me in and then he looked up at me and he says, I know you've been to Israel. And I'm like, Dean, just stick to your lie, stick to your lie, you know. And and then he's he oh he shot my passport, he handed to me, he says, I want you to pull all those stickers off the back of your passport. I don't know if you know, sometimes the airlines will put little stickers on your passport. And I said, No problem. I sat there and peeled them all off right there, and I then I entered, got into Lebanon. And then of course it was like six or seven o'clock at night, and I got into the taxi, and it was the city was pitch black. And I was like, What's going on here? And I asked him, I says, What's going on? He says, Oh, there's a power, they have power out, you know, regular power outages. And so it was kind of eerie entering such a large city, and it was not a light to be seen other than headlights. Um, so that was my intro to Lebanon. Um, but uh yeah, it only got better from there.
Joe Boyle, Host:So so you have been to Israel?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Here's a question of the Yeah, I've been there a couple times, yeah. Yeah, I spent a lot of time in Israel.
unknown:Have you ever been to Gaza though?
Dean Fromm, Guest:I have been to Gaza. I uh 1995, I entered Gaza, very bizarre circumstances. I befriended a Palestinian in Jerusalem who was a professional photographer, and he was he was he was born in Gaza and he invited me to go in there, so we went to the Gaza border, but they wouldn't let him in because he apparently didn't have the right papers, oddly enough, even though that's where he was from. And so I said, Well, then I guess we're not going. And he goes, Oh, he says, You he told me he says you can still go in there, and I go, come on. He says, I'm a little intimidated at entering Gaza. And he's like, No, I'll go for it. So I did, and um yeah, I'll never forget the Israeli border guards thought I was nuts, but I got stamped in. I walked, there's just kind of a no man's land in between Israel and Gaza. I walked through there. In fact, I got an interesting picture I kind of took carefully in there with all the barbed wire. And I got to the other side, and there was probably 15 taxi drivers, and I was the one person standing there, and they were just chomping at their bits, like, oh, well, here's here's some money, you know. And they were offering me these outrageous prices to giving me a ride into the city, which was a couple miles in. And I kind of ignored them all and I just started walking, thinking, I was thinking, I hope that one of these guys calls my bluff. And sure enough, one guy got in his car and pulled up next to me and we renegotiated. And so I hired him, and then he became my driver for the next couple days. So yeah, I spent a couple days in Gaza, and I have to say, some of the most generous people I've ever been to. So for the two days I was there, I was offered free housing. Uh, people were feeding me, and these are some of the poorest people on the planet, even back then. But um, it was a great experience. You know, I have some great photos and great, great stories about it. It was kind of uh ideal time to be there if there is such a thing, because it was month or so after uh Ikshak Rabin had been assassinated, and he was uh, of course, I think I guess he was the prime minister of Israel. Um and he but he was kind of beloved by all because he was saw as one of the last great hopes of for making peace. So even the you know, even the Palestinians were a little sad, and so it was a you know a fairly safe time to be there. But yeah, it was an amazing experience. And I've traveled all over West Bank and Golan Heights, um, yeah, pretty much all the regions of of Palestine. Wonderful people, absolutely generous and wonderful people.
Mark Wolak. Host:You know, one of the things that Joe and I wanted to do when we started this podcast is to talk to people just like you, people that have these great stories, and you're just a regular guy living in the United States. You could you could you don't have to do this. So there's something really spiritual or soulful about you to be willing to take a ride into that dark city in Lebanon. Um death. So there's something there that I would like you to share with our listeners today about that. What drives you to do that?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, it I think it's been earned or built up through the years, you know. I mean, I've toughened up or I've learned to I've learned to have faith in humanity, I guess, is as simple as that, you know. And uh and I don't know what else more to say, I guess, if it's really that simple. That I've I've gone seen enough things and gone through enough awkward experiences that I've just learned that everything works out in the end and just grin and bear it and the good will come out of it, and it always does. So it's not always hasn't always been easy. I've definitely had to step off the deep end a few times to you know just like entering going into Ukraine is like people, a lot of people say, What are you nuts? And I'm like, you know, if if I uh you know, if I if I don't take chances, I'll never have these experiences, you know. So good for you, man. Yeah, thank you.
Mark Wolak. Host:I that's that's a really helpful uh reflection, and I think our listeners will appreciate that.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, I mean I think everybody should should should go out of their comfort zone now and then. It's the only way to learn. Yeah, right. And I've certainly done that more than once, for sure, for sure.
Joe Boyle, Host:And now it's time for stories in life. Art from the heart, deep thoughts from the shallow end. Each episode we bring you a poem, a song, or a reading just for you.
Mark Wolak. Host:Today's Art from the Heart is a poem that honors world travelers, written with respect for curiosity, courage, and the quiet wisdom that comes from going far and coming back changed. The poem is called Those Who Go. They leave with a map, folded small, more faith than plans, and the soft understanding that home will not wait in one piece. They learn the weight of distance, how a sunrise means something different when it finds you alone, how language can fail and still be kind. They drink water from unfamiliar cups, learn to bow, to listen, to pause. They make peace with wrong turns and discover that arrival is overrated. Their pockets hold tickets to their own, their eyes carry borders on scene, and their hearts pick up accents they never fully lose. They return quieter, not louder, less certain, more grounded. They speak of a place, but what they really bring back is a perspective. The world does not crown them, there are no parades for understanding, but they walk differently now, knowing the earth is wide and humanity oddly close. This poem called Those Who Go was written specifically for this episode of Stories in Life on the Radio with Mark and Joe.
unknown:Don't waste your time now asking me why. I don't know, I know I'll just be moving along. You say that home is where my love is at. I say that home is where I hang my hat. The time has come to swing a travel and stone. I love the feel of my back to the wind. The two old match in order cake the while would be wrong. You think that love is friends, a child and a home. You can't buy love on a twenty-year loan. The time has come to sing a travel and song. Someday where we sat in your old port swing, a tamer man may offer you a ring. A man that wants his friends and neighbors, a child and a home. Don't waste your tears on love that never could be. What's right for others just ain't right for me. The time has come to sing a travel and song.
Joe Boyle, Host:But from like a geopolitical point of view, how does traveling to the Muslim world say differ from you know traveling through Western Europe?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, um I honestly think the Islamic world in general are far more generous and welcoming than anything you'll encounter in Western Europe. Uh it's in their DNA, it's in their soul, it's it's who they are. Um and uh I again, contrary to what many of us are led to believe, they are. They're just super, super welcoming. I have so many, so many, so many stories of being invited into homes. I mean, I could I I actually got a list of kind of these some of these stories right in front of me that I made of just you know, phenomenally generous and welcoming people. I mean, I you know. So yeah, I've just learned that that's who they are, you know. I mean, like an example is when I entered a city of Shelchuk in Turkey, and I had just gotten there early in the day and was sitting in a restaurant. I hadn't even found a hotel. This was before the internet and all that, and I didn't have, you know, before booking.com and all that. So I didn't even have a hotel or anything. And I was eating at a small little shop, and this family wasn't sitting next to me, and they were Muslims, and they started chatting with me, and I told them my situation and that I was about to look for a hotel, and they said, No, no, no, you you you're gonna stay with us. I'm like, no, no, you don't need to do that, you don't even know who I am. And they invited me to stay with them, and it was one of the most I always plan on spending a couple days there. I ended up spending a week just because they were just so much fun. I I have so many great stories and so many great pictures of parties and good times we had and things they would take me out on road trips out of the out of the town, and it's just it's unheard of, you know, that kind of welcoming experience is hard to come by.
Joe Boyle, Host:Well, that'll uh establish your faith in your fellow man right there.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's not that story is not isolated. There's been many other similar stories in other parts of the world, uh, especially the Islamic world, but yeah. But in general, I'd find people pretty welcoming in most places, you know.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah. What I like about that story, Dean, is that um, you know, it ties so closely into the notion of our human connection across race, across countries, across the world, that we have this common interest in being good to our children, being able to feed our families, being kind to strangers. Yeah, but we're not all that different.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. You know, I I always like I said earlier, I think it comes down to we all love our children, we all want the best for them, you know. So it's as simple as that, you know. Great story.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, that really is. I have a friend in in Morocco who I traveled to London with to attend an international education conference a number of years ago. And we went to the British Museum, and we I wanted to see the Viking ship that they had dug up in Denmark and had it in the British Museum. So we went to look at that, and that was about 900 AD. And uh while we're in there, uh you know, he said, Well, let's let's go look at what my people were doing in a thousand AD. We went across the museum and this was the area of Assyria then, and they had sophisticated clothing, sophisticated glassware, uh, beautiful uh weapons, beautiful art. And we had uh, you know, a bunch of raw tools stolen from gold from churches, you know. And what was interesting in the theme in that conference was uh that there was a time when people from London and from uh uh England traveled to Assyria for knowledge. You know, they had the knowledge.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, they had they they they were the masters of mathematics and scientists early on, for sure.
Mark Wolak. Host:And in in a lot of ways, uh I'm gonna speak as a sort sort of a naive person, but I uh I would believe politics led to the destruction of that knowledge and that science, not the goodwill of people.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, you're probably right. Probably right.
Mark Wolak. Host:Thank you, because that reminded me of uh how how fun his name was Mohammed El Meski. Sounds like a Polish guy from Minnesota, but it wasn't Muhammad El Meski um is still working in that region as an educational leader. Yeah, he was a wonderful person to travel with. I really enjoyed it.
Dean Fromm, Guest:He still lives in Morocco? Yes, he does. Well, you should go visit him there if you haven't.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, I have visited him just once.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, once a wonderful country.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah. Um so thank you for that. That was fun.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah.
Mark Wolak. Host:My own little riff there.
Joe Boyle, Host:Yep. Now, have you ever been to uh the South Polynesian Islands? Because Mark has a story about that. He was just he was just down there and uh it was quite a quite an experience.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I mean I've been to Fiji and then I've been to Easter Island. So those are the two Polynesian countries, I guess you could say. So the South Pacific, more of the South Pacific, is high on my list, but uh yeah, Easter Island was certainly a highlight of travel. I that was a great experience.
Mark Wolak. Host:I had a chance, I was invited to work with a group of educators that that are in the uh the islands of Micronesia, which would be south of south of Fiji. But yeah, I got to the island of Yap, which is the island of stone money. And that's another whole conversation about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dean Fromm, Guest:I've heard of them. Yeah. But uh Yeah, there's so much of South Pacific, it's so vast, and you know, it's actually kind of one areas I'm really studying now more than any on the map, trying to absorb and learn. You know, I can name and or point at almost any continental country in the world, but the Pacific Islands I'm still a little rusty on, so I'm trying to sharpen up on those.
Mark Wolak. Host:Well, we have a couple listeners down there, Dean. So when you're ready, uh I'll sign you up with a friend in Guam, and I think maybe one in Yap.
Dean Fromm, Guest:I'd go to Yap in a heartbeat. Absolutely. Yeah, and Guam would be interesting as well, for sure, for sure. Yeah, there's there's so many regions of that part of the world I'd love to see more of. Um but you know, that's good to it's good to have more more places to go. Everybody thinks I'm running out of places to go, but that's certainly not the case.
Joe Boyle, Host:I bet. Yeah, you're you're about like halfway there. How many countries are there anyway?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, the United Nation I think recognizes 195 right now. Um so yeah, I mean I'm over half, but it depends whose count you're going by. There's a few they don't recognize, oddly enough. They don't recognize Taiwan as a country, they don't recognize Palestine as a country, uh, they don't recognize Kosovo as a country. Those are three contentious that I consider countries, their own countries. But anyways, so yeah, the UN list is I think 195 right now.
Mark Wolak. Host:So do you have like a source that you go to for you know just gaining information before you go to a country? Or do you have like our listeners are going to be wondering, well, how do you prepare?
Dean Fromm, Guest:I mean, I'm always preparing. I every day I, you know, even just an hour before we hooked up this for this interview, I was looking at different, I was looking at actually talking about the British Museum. I was looking talking, looking at some of the stuff in British Museum, but I mean, I'm always doing research. And then um, once I kind of decide where I'm gonna go, then I just been, you know, these days, I mean, sometimes I'll go buy like a Lonely Planet guidebook to get started and just kind of get a feel for the place. But more and more everything is online. You know, you just you can find anything online, so just start snooping there and studying maps first of all, learn the history. Um, you know, a Ask Google what are the top 10 things to visit when I get to so and so and and just slowly start making a a picture of what I want to do. You know, but I never really set anything in stone. I know a lot of people when they travel, they have to have everything defined and now this day I'm gonna be this, this, this, and then the next day this, that, and that. I mean, fortunately I have more time on my hands so I can travel more slowly and intently and be prepared to veer off different directions of and meet different people who are going, you know, hey, we're going over here this day, and I'll go, oh, okay, I'll I was gonna do this, but I'll do that instead. So I'm open to open to ideas. And uh so yeah, I think now these days it's more and more just on the internet. Everything is there.
Joe Boyle, Host:Say, Dean, if you could impart uh wisdom or advice to anybody considering world travel, do you have a a couple things that you'd say, well, if you're gonna travel, you gotta know this, this, and this?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I mean, I would certainly encourage people to travel as late as possible. I know it sounds kind of trivial, but it's not. It really makes such a difference in getting around and all that. Um I mean, beyond that, you know, I used to feel like I was a little opinionated about how people should travel, but at this point I've uh you know, I really don't care if people want to go lay on a beach in Jamaica for a week. If that's and makes them happy, then good, you know, good for them, you know. Who am I to to judge? But it's not really my style. You know, I like to just be out there and inter mingle with people and and just kind of go with the flow and you know be a people, observer of people. So I you know, I think my advice would be to travel any way you want to travel, but um, yeah, just don't be afraid to indelve into the c you know local culture. I know a lot of people don't do that, you know, they go hide away in these resorts and stuff, and I think I think people could get more out of intermingling with the cultures and stuff, but I agree.
unknown:Yeah.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Obviously, is is enjoying the the local cuisines.
Joe Boyle, Host:Uh being the most scared, where where was that? That you had to all these countries, 109 countries, there has to be some things that you thought, well, not gonna do that again or whatever.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Oh well, I mean, I've just had some strange things happen to me, you know. I mean, like one, you know, I mean, I don't know if that it has anything to do with the country per se, but you know, I I hate to almost tell it even say where some of those things happen because I don't want to um narrow down country. But you know, I've been mugged, I've had weird things happen. I had there's a trick where they squirt bird shit on you and then they come and w wipe, you know, print like they're helping you wipe it off even while they're trying to rob you and take your money and um had that happen to me. Uh I when I was in Russia, I was on Lake Baikal, and I think this is one of the scariest things that happened, but it had nothing to do with the country. It was what what I did as I was uh I was on Lake Baikal, and this is a very small village, and I went for this hike up above the village. I was probably two, three miles away from the village, and rain moved in, it started to get it was probably 40 degrees out, and wind was blowing hard. And so I turned around and hiked back to the city and or to the village. And I slipped and fell into this creek and I hit my head and I definitely got a concussion, knocked myself out, and I woke up and I was halfway in the creek, I was soaking wet. And um I got up and I slipped and fell again and fell into the river. I was drenched to the bone. And I remember sitting there thinking, you know, if you don't get up now, you dummy, you there's no way you'll survive the night. So I made it my way down into the village and got into my little room, little bungalow. I was kind of renting from this family, and I was I was so hurting. I just my my camera was destroyed, my phone was destroyed from the being all wet, and I couldn't move for a couple days. I didn't have any food. And then a couple days into it, the guy who owned the room knocked on the door and I answered and in his broken English, he asked me, Am I alright? And I said yes. And I kind of explained what happened. He's like, Oh, he said, vodka. He thought I had drank too much vodka. And I was like, No, no, it wasn't vodka. I just slipped and fell. You know, I had I was bleeding in my face. I had I think bruised some ribs pretty bad. But uh that that was kind of a scary, probably the scariest experience. Well, I probably should have gotten a flight and tried to get back home, but at that point I was already days into it trying to recover. Then I had to take a small little bus to get up to the city of Yerkutz. And then yeah, I connected with the Trans. I did the Transurbian Railroad on that trip all the way across Russia. And so I I got back on the train and I was so hurting, and for two days I had to ride this rough train with my ribs were bruised, and I was like, oh god, just shoot me, you know. But um couldn't enjoy it, yeah. Yeah, it was rough, that was a rough one. Um but yeah, I mean incidents like that happen, you know. I mean, it's just part of travel and being out there and putting yourself out there, you know. But as far as going somewhere that that said, no, I would never do this again, I I'm not sure I would pick any one spot and say that. You know, I've you know they've all been learning experiences, but nothing I would be afraid to not go back to.
Mark Wolak. Host:That's fair. So since you like maps, I'm sure there's gonna be at least one listener that's wondering, are our maps pretty good? Are are maps pretty good? Yeah, I mean, as you you've used maps around the world. Um do you trust the maps you're looking at? I mean, do they help you?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Oh of course. I think there's a lot to be read into a map, not just the direction of where places are, but you know, the you know, see if you learn the flow where the rivers are which way the direction everything's flowing, you understand why people chose to live in places, and you know, it starts on you start to help you understand why humanity picks certain regions and spots to live in. And you know, it makes sense, you know. You know, I was like a few years ago, I was in Kotor in Montenegro, and I it's one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And when I got there, I I said, you know what, this is this is everything that a human being would choose to as a live perfect location to live in. You've got a beautiful bay leading out to the ocean or to the sea, you've got a river coming down this beautiful mountain valley, you're surrounded by beautiful mountains. I mean, it's geographically a perfect place, you know. And I and I was like, you know, this is what this is what maps are made for, you know, and and it is. Um, which I use and I'm all I'm looking at Google Earth constantly. Uh but yeah, I I think I think they're very valuable. I think you can learn a lot from a map on why a culture chooses to be where they are and yeah, where how cities are where they are, and so on and so forth.
Joe Boyle, Host:Speaking of different cultures, you must have heard some wonderful cultural music along the way.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, and I like to often I I buy I have quite a selection of well, CDs and cassettes, I guess. I don't have any cassette player to play them on, but um pretty extensive collection. Usually when I travel, I try to buy some local music. Um I do. I I enjoy that very much, very much.
Joe Boyle, Host:What what kind of music do you listen to normally? What's your favorite kind of music?
Dean Fromm, Guest:Well, I think you you know, you know, I've obviously you and I know each other for years. Uh I mean I'm a Beatles Pink Floyd kind of guy, but I'm pretty open to anything. Um, you know, I enjoy from classical music, most any kind of music, really. Um yeah, you know, I was thinking about the other day I was listening to Paul Simon's Rhythm of the Saints, which is one of my favorite albums. And that album probably more than any reminds me or makes me think about traveling the world. So that that's an album that makes me happy. But I'm open to most music.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, there's a there's a special on Paul Simon that I watched in the past year, and and one of the things he he said in there that I wrote down was the ear goes to the irritant.
unknown:Interesting. Okay, yeah. Wow, that's think about that one, yeah.
Mark Wolak. Host:Think about the things that annoy you in the world, right?
unknown:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, and maybe that's where we learn the most is you know, with the irritant moments, you know. Or at least learn learn the most about ourselves, anyways, yeah.
Joe Boyle, Host:And Dean, uh next time you're in Minnesota, maybe you could come visit. Uh you could stay at our house and you could join us in our studio.
Dean Fromm, Guest:That would be great. That would be great. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, good old Lake Elmo. Yeah.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, we got we got maps here. Um so I'll so I will never be bored.
Dean Fromm, Guest:You know, somebody asked me one time if is they said, uh Dean, if you were ever stuck on a tropical island, what would what book would you want to take along to read? And I says, I would take a World Atlas. And they go, Wouldn't that drive you nuts looking at a World Atlas and not being able to leave the island? I'm like, Yeah, maybe a little, but you know, it's still my favorite book, you know.
Mark Wolak. Host:So they're in your mind, it keep your mind occupied.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Mark Wolak. Host:Re this past summer, uh, we took our three oldest grandkids from Grand Marie to Isle Royal by sailboat. I've I've been saying 30 plus years.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, I know I've I've I'm familiar with your sailing adventures or a little bit, yeah. I'm jealous.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, the first time I went there was in 1996, I think. And I had a handheld GPS, which was just you know, breaking just brand new kind of ground, because before that was the Loran, and that was clumsy and had nothing but fog, and I kept running up on things that we shouldn't be on, you know, because I had no chart. Yeah. Everything was basically visual flight rules, you know. You're uh you're doing time and distance on a map.
Dean Fromm, Guest:It's the best way to learn, you know.
Mark Wolak. Host:It's okay to learn, but I was just helped my grandkids understand how bad the technology was, they couldn't get it.
Dean Fromm, Guest:You know, I was I was hiking a month or so ago. I was on the Colorado Trail hiking and I had pulled out a paper map, and some kids walked by and they started laughing at me. And they was like, Why don't you just you use your phone? I'm like, why don't you? I said, Why don't you just get a damn map, you know? It's like they're like, I don't can you buy those anymore or sit somewhere. It's like, yeah, I think you can. So now it's I like the old old ways, you know. Yeah, but I take advantage of the new ways too, you know. I've you gotta live with both and with the time.
Joe Boyle, Host:So yeah, um I was a salesman for 30 years, and and every time I travel I had the east coast as my territory. Man, I had to have those maps with me every every single time. I had a whole cabinet full of maps.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah. I I've got boxes and boxes of maps, yeah.
Joe Boyle, Host:Yeah.
Dean Fromm, Guest:It's changed things for sure, but it's you know, some for the sometimes for the better, sometimes not, you know.
Mark Wolak. Host:This was great. I'm sure that we forgot some things, but uh we got a great episode. And well, great, good. When you're back in Minnesota, or if we're in Colorado, I guess that too, because we can do an interview on a phone.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Wolak. Host:But if you're back, let's try to get it.
Dean Fromm, Guest:Oh, I'm over I'm back often. Most every year I get there. So Joe Joe and I see each other pretty much every year. Yeah.
Joe Boyle, Host:Dean, thank you so much. Uh you were a great guest that you played right into our sweet spot of what we try to accomplish with our well, I'm I'm glad to hear that.
Dean Fromm, Guest:I like I said, I was a little nervous, but uh you guys made it easy and and smooth. And so I thank you. Thank you for that.
Joe Boyle, Host:Oh, it's gonna be a great story. Happy trails, my friend.
Dean Fromm, Guest:All right, it was great talking to you guys. I appreciate it. And uh let me know uh when you put this thing together.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, we'll send you the link as soon as it's ready and produced. Joe, that was really a delightful story.
Joe Boyle, Host:Yeah, if you're ever gonna talk to someone about uh traveling, he's a good place to start because uh man, he's been most places 109 countries out of 195? Wow.
Mark Wolak. Host:You know, I have a son that worked for the government and worked for the government for 13 years, and he probably was in forty to fifty countries, something like that over that time period. So Dean has been in how many countries? 109. And there are how many countries. I think he mentioned 1950. In the United Nations. Yeah, he did say that. Well, to me, it would take a tremendous amount of courage to say I'm gonna step off the dock and just head out today.
Joe Boyle, Host:Right. Well, and I'm impressed by the fact that he travels with uh a little backpack that's smaller than most people's day pack, he said.
Mark Wolak. Host:Yeah, you know, the thing I see is this attitude uh of constantly learning about other people, about uh maps. You know, we kind of uh laugh a little bit about him using maps, but maps were always important in our society. They gotcha that's the only way people figured out how to get around. So uh to me it's an appreciation for uh learning and a really good attitude about just keep on keeping on establishing friendships along the way. A big takeaway from me in uh getting to know Dean in the storytelling was how much he appreciated uh human beings on this earth no matter where they live. A love for their family, a love to take care of their family, open to meeting him a stranger, inviting him in as a stranger.
Joe Boyle, Host:You saw him where they're at. And they saw him where he was at and welcomed him in.
Mark Wolak. Host:So just a wonderful guest. I'm so glad that you were able to get him to come and visit with us. And maybe there's a future story yet from Dean, as he's finished.
Joe Boyle, Host:But he's uh he's a good man and he's a good friend of mine. Okay, today we heard Further to Fly by Paul Simon off his Rhythm of the Saints album from nineteen ninety. We also heard sing a traveling song by Johnny Cash off his Hi, I'm Johnny Cash album from nineteen seventy. And we also heard Africa from Toto off the Toto Four album from nineteen eighty-two.
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