Stories in Life. On the Radio with Mark and Joe.
Mark and Joe interview people with stories that affirm your belief in the goodwill, courage, determination, commitment and vision of everyday people.
Our primary goal is that, through another person's story, you will find meaningful connection no matter your place in life. We intend that the stories we select will be inspiring and maybe help you laugh, cry, think or change your mind about something important in your life.
Stories in Life. On the Radio with Mark and Joe.
Beyond Traditional Bonds: Exploring Authentic Male Friendship with Neil J Meyer
Finding genuine male friendships and expressing emotions can be a complex journey, especially when faced with societal expectations. Join us for a heart-to-heart conversation with our lifelong friend, Neil J Meyer, as we break down the intricate dynamics of male companionship at different life stages. Neil's candid reflections illuminate the stark differences between male and female support systems, and how his early family experiences shaped his quest for emotional connection. Together, we revisit pivotal moments from our youth and underscore the transformative power of having male friends who share our journeys and vulnerabilities.
Grief and personal struggles often feel insurmountable when faced alone, but friendships and support groups can be a lifeline. Listen to our stories from joining men’s groups and counseling programs that helped us navigate life’s toughest times. These shared experiences not only provided relief but also forge lifelong bonds. Additionally, exploring the support offered by Al-Anon and similar groups reveals how essential community and communication are for emotional growth and resilience. We dive into the importance of seeking help to gain fresh perspectives, all while steering clear of the pitfalls of self-pity.
Breaking free from traditional norms, we explore how authenticity and unconditional love redefine male friendships and family dynamics. Reflecting on the barriers men face in expressing affection, we discuss the importance of modeling healthy relationships for future generations. Through our conversation, we emphasize the power of self-acceptance and authenticity, and how letting go of societal pressures changes our narratives.
Welcome to Stories in Life. You're on the radio with Mark and Joe. We share stories that affirm your belief in the goodwill, courage, determination, commitment and vision of everyday people.
Mark Wolak:Our goal is that through another person's story you may find connection. No matter your place in life. The stories we select will be inspiring and maybe help you laugh, cry, think or change your mind about something important in your life.
Joe Boyle:Join us for this episode of Stories in Life.
Mark Wolak:Today's guest is a very dear friend, Neil J Meyer. I first met Neil when I was 18 years old and we've shared a lifetime of memories, conversations, challenges, problems and laughter. Neil is our first interview on male friendships. In this episode, he will share his heart and soul with you about friendship, about love, about vulnerability, about family, about what matters most in life. I think you will enjoy this episode and, by the way, you're listening to one of his favorite bands, the Animals singing To Love Somebody.
Mark Wolak:So two, three, this is my first recording with Neil Meyer on Male Friendships. Today is September 15th, isn't it September 15th? Isn't it September 15th 2024. And we're sitting in his living room at his home.
Mark Wolak:So, Neil, I've been thinking about doing this with you for at least six months, but in terms of a recording of male friendships and what they mean and how they matter for men. And what inspired me to start thinking about it was my daughter had a baby and women at work, women in the neighborhood, women in her female group, friends all came around her and gave her this support. They gave her baby showers, they gave her advice, they gave her equipment, all in a real supportive way. And I was thinking when that happened, what do men do to support each other in life? So that kind of got me going on this thinking.
Mark Wolak:All right, I need to do a series of male friendship stories with men. I know and in our case, I've known you for over 50 years. I met you when I was 18 or 19 at the post office and there were gaps in the years when we didn't connect, but whenever we did connect it went deep, always right there. Yeah, so you can start wherever you want with this. I liked your earlier idea about just the age groupings, but what do you want to make sure that we cover?
Neil J Meyer:Well, one of the things you just inspired me with your introduction here on women and how they support other women unlike other men and boy, that really resonated with me and I say it's probably why I gravitated towards women so much, because the women in my life my mom, my aunts and there's where I got support the male is, you know, is more of a don't talk, don't tell, stoic, you never cry kind of thing. So growing up I always hung around other women more. When we go to family gatherings, all the guys always wanted to play cards. Yeah, and right after dinner they play cards. They didn't say anything but all they did was play cards. Well, I wasn't too old when I got, just bored with that.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Neil J Meyer:So I went and sat with the women. I found that much more enjoyable to hear that kind of stuff. And now we're getting some emotion stuff. So I was interested in more than being a stoic male pretty early being a stoic male pretty early and then going through junior high or even grade school. Later grade school I had more friends that were women, girls, and we talked about all kinds of stuff where I was less comfortable with men. Yeah, so I was actually more comfortable with women than I was with men because I got some support there. I was able to jibber-jabber, I was able to talk about things they normally couldn't talk about with men. Yeah, interesting. So that was the first thing that I wanted to respond on, and hopefully I'll come back to this in 1983 when I really realized how much I've been hanging around women and how much I really need to have hanging around men and their support, and I'll mention that later.
Neil J Meyer:But to answer that question about male friendship, when you asked me to do this, first of all, you know I was hesitant and it was hard, right. But it made me right away think about all the friends I've had in my life and different parts of my life and how those friends were in different parts of my life. And so I already think of grade school. And to those people in grade school, I still have two guys that we see each other at funerals and weddings and you know we're still connected from that, but that's as far as it is. We don't get together or anything like that. And the same thing for a couple, a few of the women from grade school.
Neil J Meyer:And then I think of high school. Well, my male friends in high school were much more sparse than my women friends, and that's one thing. That was so fun for me was going to school in Pierce in high school Pierce, minnesota, and there were six girls that lived in Buckman that's about six miles south and I'd come right into town with my loud tailpipes and all those girls were just waiting for me.
Neil J Meyer:They were waiting on the side of the sidewalk waving Give us a ride to school, let us listen to your stereo on the way. So for a couple of years it went on a couple of years when I got to Buckman, those girls were waiting for me every day and they popped in this car and here I am with a load of girls. I was the envy of all of that. Oh, I bet, I bet, but it says something about it. First of all, they were comfortable with me to do this. Yeah and uh, but I just had a. It was just really fun. Yeah, uh, for me it felt like it was somebody. Yeah, but uh, my confidence was pretty low in uh all through school because of my upbringing. I don't need to get into that, but I got better as I got older.
Mark Wolak:For our listeners, though Buckman maybe only had like seven girls in the community, right, so if you had six of them riding, in your car.
Neil J Meyer:that was a big deal. Probably, Probably. But there were some good looking ones. Oh, I bet.
Mark Wolak:Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I bet.
Neil J Meyer:Yeah, so it was good. But so I hung around more women in high school than I did guys and of course, when I fell in love then it was just all that girl, and that's all we did is be intimate, if you will, yes, yes, in a very sexual way, and so that was. And then back to because I had such a relationship with my mom, I got out of the house when I was 17, right after I graduated and went to service Okay, there's where there's mostly males. I learned a different kind of friendship there and I was a squad leader for a little while. I was a squad of 12, I think, and a platoon leader. I was about 40 later. But that kind of friendship really grows and really get connected, really strong, because this is your best, or your buddies, that when you're out on a battlefield or something, you expect to be there for each other and you count on each other, yes, and that develops a real strong bond, a real strong friendship.
Mark Wolak:Now for our listeners. You served in Vietnam.
Neil J Meyer:No, I did not. I had orders to go to Vietnam. Oh, you had orders, but they were canceled with the Nixon administration.
Mark Wolak:Okay, and where were you stationed then?
Neil J Meyer:at that time I did my basic training in North Carolina, Fort Bragg, where I was 82nd Airborne and 101st Airborne trained. That was sort of fun. I wanted to be a paratrooper but I was only 17. They said you can't go until you're 18. So I missed that opportunity there. And then I went to Fort Rucker, Alabama, which was a large, probably one of the largest helicopter training bases, and I went to be a firefighter there.
Neil J Meyer:So I ran one of these big trucks with the turret on top and I carried 1,500 gallons of foam. I would go up to the fire and get that turret to start that water. If you didn't set the brakes on that big truck, his truck would start going backwards because of all the pressure of that water coming out of that. And it was foam. It was foam and also crashing. Rescue means going out in the woods picking people up that crashed, yeah, that kind of thing. That's what I did there. Okay, so that's another story in itself. But those friendships, those strong, bonding friendships, because of orders changing all the time, going different directions, all of a sudden your strong friendship is gone.
Neil J Meyer:Yeah, yeah, but you learn to disconnect from that, you don't really follow through. I didn't follow through with any but one through my whole time and it just could cut off like that. So at first it took me a bit. So you sort of have to harden yourself up that I miss my friends. Yeah, yeah, I don't even know they're gone, they're gone.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Neil J Meyer:But you go to some other assignment, some other base, you make new friends just like that. And it doesn't take long I always said a couple of weeks where you really start to bond. Yeah, Because then again remember what we're thinking. We're here to help each other as a team, as a group Italian squad, and somebody is in trouble.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Neil J Meyer:We're going to be there to help. Yeah, God boy, those are some real friends, those are strong bonding friends, but they cut off. So I had to get used to that being cut off Then. But it was all males, Mm-hmm.
Mark Wolak:But a different kind of friendship that I experienced because they, because of that- so kind of a loyalty to each other, protect each other, but a certain amount of, maybe emotional distance, yes, just for safety purposes.
Neil J Meyer:Yeah, yeah, we didn't. We didn't get too manly. We always be pretty manly, showing off our muscles and chest and smoking cigarettes and acting like a tough guy. Yeah, yeah, but it was appropriate for when you're a fighting man, yeah, it's appropriate. You sort of do need to harden a little bit, yeah, so you can be aggressive. You need to be a little bit, yeah, so you can be aggressive. You need to be aggressive, yeah.
Mark Wolak:So then you're out of service, and this is where I first meet you, at the post office. Yes, you were, this good-looking post office employee. You look good, a great-looking mailman. I'll have to pay you for saying that.
Neil J Meyer:Thank you, a great looking mailman, I'll have to pay you for saying that.
Mark Wolak:Thank you, but you didn't stay there long.
Neil J Meyer:No, because I was interested in other things, yeah, and. But then I got married. Yeah, I had two children and got married. Yeah, had two children and got divorced. And that's when I started to learn about real friendship. Because divorce just knocked me on my behind. I say I was looking up to mouse's poop because I was so hurt. I had filled with so much hurt and loss and anger and resentment Enough. So it drove me to counseling.
Neil J Meyer:It drove me to some programs that deal with people that lost their spouse to the divorce or death. And I was surprised to find out death was included, because it's the same thing. It's a death of relationship, death of the spouse is about the same. Actually, they say it's easier if they die than just to get divorced. But those programs I started to be in men's groups there and for the first time in my life I was talking to men in an intimate, more intimate way. Tell you how we feel. I remember one said this stuff is just burning a hole in my brain and we'd sit there and cry together. We had plenty to cry about and we knew that crying was a path to healing.
Mark Wolak:But you didn't know these men before that group Not at all, but what a bonding experience.
Neil J Meyer:We hugged every day, you know. We held hands, we were just really connected and you didn't have to be afraid of what you say. Yeah, there was no holding back on anything. First time in my life I got to really experience that Boy. That's powerful. Otherwise, I so often felt judged, ridiculed, yeah, and came from a place of shame and guilt. So that was, and so those friends lasted for a while. They drifted away too after well, that was 40 years ago. But boy were they close. I met one of them 35 years later. We saw each other, we hugged and we started talking like we had never skipped a beat, like we had been friends the whole time. That's amazing, it was just so close.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, that tells you a lot about the power of intimacy right there. Yes, it does 35 years later.
Neil J Meyer:Yes, 35 years later I met that guy. Wow, wow, yeah, one of them, the one that said that stuff is burning a hole in my brain, wow, and so I call that real friendship. Yeah, that's deep, but it even got better.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, so good for you to be able to be that vulnerable as a man with a lot of ego like I have, and be able to connect deeply with this group of men who really all you shared in common was grief, shame, pain, heartbreak loss right and it was the greatest thing, most bonding thing, most important thing that I have ever done for me to get healthy.
Neil J Meyer:That's where I found out how messed up I am, because I had no idea of boundaries. I had no idea what acceptable behavior was Unacceptable behavior. I just never got any of that anyplace else in my life and all of a sudden I've gotten familiar with it. But this gets better, Because then I went through being a have an alcoholic close to me, because then I went through being a having an alcoholic close to me in my life, an alcoholic that I love. The hurt and loss and anger and resentment that comes with that drove me to more counseling and but the Al-Anon program.
Neil J Meyer:The Al-Anon program is really where I learned about bonding friendships that really last lifelong. Those become more, more lifelines for the ones that you choose, mm-hmm, because anybody who drags himself to Al-Anon is filled with hurt and loss and anger and resentment. You come there. The support and the warmth from everybody is just amazing. Yeah, Just amazing. A willingness to share the darkest times and the best times and their wisdom and knowledge based on experience.
Neil J Meyer:You know, some of those Al-Anon members were 20 years, I was brand new. But that's where I really found what a real bonding friendship males there was, all males that I bonded with there to be able to have somebody that when you're feeling bad or you're feeling a little dark and you just don't have a clear picture of stuff, that you know that you can call that person and you know that they're going to be filled with love and support for you. And I know I've done it enough now to know just how powerful it is and how a simple phone call to that friend will change the way I feel quickly almost instantly so extremely powerful to have those friends?
Mark Wolak:Well, one of. I mean this is one of the reasons I wanted you to be our first, if not one of the first, interviews about male friendships, because there have been times in my life when I have gotten that from you. I picked up the phone and called you and immediately got support and connection, and in a nonjudgmental way, totally. So. You know, one of the things for our listeners out there is if there's a guy listening who needs connection, you have any advice about where they should start. Somebody who's just really struggling with something that's, you know, eating them up. They're not happy, they're miserable. What, what thoughts do you have about that?
Neil J Meyer:well, my thoughts on that. First of all, I've been open to counseling. When it was counseling wasn't cool. And my counselor says I admire your willingness to plunge yourself into darkness to find out more about yourself. And I said I'm just interested.
Mark Wolak:More about myself, that's powerful and I want to learn and so this started a long time ago.
Neil J Meyer:So if I'm in trouble, I feel a support system out there. The one thing I can do is call my counselor, tell me what you think about this, or he might say well, we need to talk about this one more. Sometimes he'll just clear it up real quick. Oh yeah, I never thought of it that way. Yeah, thanks, you gave me the perspective to see this differently. Very good. The same thing if Al-Anon, if there's something that doesn't have to be an alcohol related kind of thing. What do you think about this? Just hearing other people's opinions about it, and then two groups that have the same same suffering like support groups. Like support groups if you lost a spouse or somebody just to do a grief. That stuff is just awesome. Stuff that will help keep you on a healthy path of grieving, yeah, rather than go off into the ditch, yeah, and start feeling sorry for yourself. The self-pity is very destructive.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, yeah, I think that's really powerful. But you had a desire to get help, ask for help, and you also had to overcome your ego. Right, you had to say I'm kind of screwed up here, I need some other perspective, I need to talk to somebody.
Neil J Meyer:One thing I still had ego Enough ego and confidence to be me to be able to say I need this for me Because I had become successful in my career. Yeah, and that made me feel like I was somebody, yeah, and so I approached this with strength yeah, not weakness, that's great. I approached it with wanting to get better. I wanted to learn more, I wanted to see more light, I wanted to dig down deep, like I did in my career with stuff.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Neil J Meyer:I want to really learn the inner stuff here to help me. I want to feel better. Yeah, I want to live a better life yeah, so it was always trying to be better.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, so you have this network of men and women, but the topic on this one is male relationships. You have this network of men. Talk a little bit about what you get from each of those connections, just kind of, so that our listeners kind of know the variety of people you have out there.
Neil J Meyer:I'll start with Eddie. Eddie lives in Southern California, south of the Los Angeles airport, right on the beach, and he said his whole land is sliding into the ocean. I met him at an online Al-Anon meeting and what he said just resonated with me. I said, boy, I really like what you said. You pulled from a lot of different areas, pulled strings to bring this statement together I'd like to talk with you more. She says, well, I'd like to talk with you more. And I said well, how about we talk to each other every other week? And we've been doing that every other week and we've been doing it for some time. Every week, when we start, we just jibber jabber. There's just no interruption. We're willing to talk about everything, anything the sadness in our life, the triumphs in our life and everything. It's just so refreshing. I don't have to worry about being a certain way. He just accepts me as I am, completely and totally, no matter what. He's interested in my perspective and I'm the same with him.
Neil J Meyer:How wonderful, right, right, how wonderful, right. So I also have that with you and I can do that with you. Call you if I need anything, and I have a few Al-Anon members I have that with. I've lost a few friends, but that'll give you a good taste of what those are really powerful friends. If I got any problems of any kind, I can just make a call, knowing that I'm going to feel better because I've had enough experience with it to know I always feel better when I connect with somebody else.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Joe Boyle:And now it's time for Stories in Life. Art from the heart, deep thoughts from the shallow end.
Mark Wolak:Each episode, we bring you a poem, a song. My friend Neil, in February of 2023, and it's titled my Friend Neil. He was given a bold name of Little Cock as his native identity this choice makes me smile Says that he acts like a rooster sometimes I saw it once or twice but you can cage a rooster. The man I see is soft and warm and full of love, puts his big arms around me, whether in person or not, and keeps an eye on protecting the perimeter for my safety, whatever I need to be my best. His curiosity and learning took him places beyond the farm, dirt machines and animals, away from the abuses of Catholic Church and war to new conditions of employment, marriage, children, divorce, caroline and more fresh opportunities now of grandchildren and lush pleasures of life in retirement. His discipline as a jet pilot and leader kept others alive. He drives a big rig, now sees nature up close with his best friend and lover, the two of them together, like Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward. Physical beauty and deepest of love and commitment, neil and Carolyn. Neil digs deep into his psyche and motives, his actions and his thoughts. A jet pilot of a thinker depths like Lake Superior.
Mark Wolak:When I am near, I knew little of this 50 plus years ago. When I first saw him, he was a farm kid kissing a girl in a car. I was 14 and the year was 1967, living in my second delightful shithole with an irresponsible mother and an absent father. I wished then that I could kiss a girl like that. Did not know. Neil from Mark then, five years later.
Mark Wolak:I met him while working at the post office in St Cloud my overnight job on weekend shifts emptying trucks and sorting mail, sorting and postmarking mail on the conveyor belt. He was a good-looking dude in that blue post office uniform, big smile, eyes that sparkled a great laugh and showed some interest my way. We found a starting point for connection that thrives today. Over the years we led lives at a distance, sometimes years in between our visits, but always a strong connection when made a respect for the life of the other, a curiosity perhaps for what was missed. Then, unexpectedly, I needed him. There was no question I needed a trustworthy friend. But I had to go deep to the well, share my scariest story with him and trust that he would be kind and gentle and help me without condition, accept my story with love. And so he did.
Mark Wolak:We speak now often of gratitude, share stories from the heart, sharing ways to be a good father, a spouse and friend, sharing mistakes and learning with passion. Hesitating at times, but digging deeper. I say shared growth needs tending. Sharing mistakes and learning with passion. Hesitating at times, but digging deeper. I say shared growth needs tending. Once underway, the stream of conversation expands awareness and understanding, expands my peace and comfort, knowing our friendship will handle the trust given it. Friendship now solidly built on trust is a strong foundation for a shared story of life ahead, a reminder that this great friendship between me and Neil is simply the gift of love
Neil J Meyer:I'm curious what are your thoughts about some of the time I spent with males in that environment, like going fishing trips in Canada and all the stuff that gets said. There's nothing intimate about that at all. It's drinking beer, talking smart. I remember being in that bunkhouse, all those guys. I can't sleep because they're all snoring and I thought what the hell am I doing here? I made some people angry when I said God, these walleyes just never stop biting. I'm getting so tired of catching these fish. You tell that to the fishermen. Oh boy, I probably got some trouble with some of your listeners too. So that tells you how I was not interested in that. Yeah, I went hunting for deer, got a deer my first year when I was 14 years old, went three years after that with a brand-new rifle. Never saw one again, went to the service, was turned off by guns when I got back and I sold everything. I just used it for target practice now Mm-hmm. So that's how that changed. And say that question again to make sure it's on track.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, you're on track, you're very much on track. I'm just curious if there would be some observation you have about ways that men could be more intimate with each other without it becoming like like a social uh, like a social uh issue, you know. In other words, men, you know, can't say they love each other. It sounds it would sound gay, I know but it would sound in the old, the old school was you know, are you not? I still say are you, you know, are you not? Are you gay, you know?
Neil J Meyer:I still. No, I'm not gay. I have a beautiful, lovely wife that I absolutely adore. Yeah, but it made me think about. We're at the NASCAR races, funny cars, you know nitro cars and talk about male testosterone. Yeah, there's no way that there's going to be room for any intimate kind of talk about anything there. There's guys that I still, that I've known for quite a long time. I'll tell them I love them. Never. Hear it, never. But I'm okay with that. Yeah, yeah and uh, people usually either love me or they. I scared the hell out of them.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, a little too much intimacy.
Neil J Meyer:Yeah, because I am yeah, exactly yeah, and I know that about me, but I am okay with that. That's me. I'm just more intense that way.
Mark Wolak:That's okay, yeah.
Neil J Meyer:That's just part of me. Yeah, and then I also like to say I'm too busy hanging around the people that love me to worry about people that don't, so I'm a very comfortable place there. So I think for males to get intimacy, they first have to have some desire for it. Yeah, or if they hear it or are invited, that they have some kind of response rather than scared the hell out of them. Yeah, I got a lot of what's called friends that aren't those close friends, more like colleagues. There's no way I could talk of them. Yeah, I got a lot of it's called friends that aren't those close friends, more like colleagues. There's no way I could talk to them about it. It would scare the hell out of them, yeah, and they'd probably judge me too.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, and we're both in this age cohort now where we have children and grandchildren and boys and girls, and I've thought a lot about the role model that I want to be for my children and grandchildren, because they're obviously paying attention and there are things that we can do that model healthy relationships, that model boundaries, like you said earlier, that model love. What are your thoughts about that?
Neil J Meyer:Here's my thoughts on that. I remember asking my counselor. I told him that you know I feel so guilty for having put my children through some of the things that they had to go through in their upbringing One my two older children divorce, and then my two younger children that they had to grow up in an alcoholic kind of a home. And so the counselor told me that. He said don't beat yourself up on that. They learned an awful lot from watching you guys. Both you guys worked hard. They were watching closely. They learned a lot, so don't beat yourself up. They learned things that a lot of people never learned. They learned about life, like many people didn't learn. They're going to be just fine because they're all healthy and connected children, he says. But if you want to really connect with your children, just be a good grandpa, because there's nothing more powerful than your children watching you interact with their children. Yeah, I have a 10-year-old, 6-year-old and 4-year-old. I embraced them with my energy, my willingness to spend time with them. They all just act like they adore me.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Neil J Meyer:And they just all act like they love me. And I tell my children they say, well, they haven't figured me out yet, but they sure love me now. But and the love I feel from them in return is just so powerful.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Neil J Meyer:And I'm so grateful for that. But boy, did it ever connect me with my children? Yeah, so grateful for that. But boy, did it ever connect me with my children? Yeah, being a good grandpa has has gone very noticed by all my children. Yeah, and they're just impressed. Yeah and uh, so my counselor was right.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, that's how you connect. You know one thing that we haven't used this word, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna put it out there for us because I know that in both of our upbringings love was conditional it was not unconditional and because in my family love was conditional, you could never just be lovable. You couldn't just be loved for just who you are, with all your faults and all your blemishes and all your stuff. I had none of that. It was shame and guilt, yeah. And so I think one of the things that in our lives what you and I have been able to do is to both work on it but also give it. You know, I've had to work on it for me first to be able, even be able to give unconditional love, but then, once I figured out that I needed it, I was much more able to give it and uh, and you know I've had a much happier and more positive life experience because I did that.
Neil J Meyer:Giving it makes it come back to you. Yeah, boy, is that beautiful.
Mark Wolak:Yeah. So you know I think about. We now have nine grandchildren, two of them are under a year old and those two little boys are going to have to do some important things in this world as they grow up. And I want them to hear this conversation you and I are having about this because of how powerful that is, that shift in our lives. You know, because I think in our culture, in our lives, you know because I think in our culture, men who do not recognize the need for connection, the need for love, are angry men. They're angry about that, they're angry about that loss and because of that anger they create other problems in our society no no, yeah, so very destructive.
Mark Wolak:You know, we have a chance to raise these grandchildren in that culture of love and acceptance and you model that really well.
Mark Wolak:And speaking of that, with my life, not that much to live, that just resonates Because my children's hearts are filled with love and they learn all that by example, and my heart is absolutely filled with love, filled with gratitude for having lived this wonderful life yeah, one of the things that I'm struck by as we have this conversation around men and male relationships is that a lot of details in our lives, like what we do for work, how we earn money, whether we're married or not, whether we have children or not, no matter what is going on what we're really talking about is the intimacy of a male friendship. That all that other stuff, the social norms, the pressures, the social pressures that are put on men to compete, be tough, be strong, get a good job, do everything socially correct none of that really matters when we're talking about male friendships, does it?
Neil J Meyer:No, no, it doesn't, Does it no no, it doesn't.
Mark Wolak:It's there, but it isn't. It shouldn't be a barrier.
Neil J Meyer:It shouldn't be something that gets in the way of intimacy between men.
Mark Wolak:I think mostly it's fear, it's fear, fear, fear to be afraid, afraid to be you in the presence of someone that's a good point Afraid Men in general, especially kind of an angry culture, a cultural male figure, an angry male figure is not approachable. Yeah, I'm not scared, yeah, yeah, and you know damn well they're very scared. Any advice that you would give young people today I'm not scared, yeah, yeah, and you know damn well they're very scared. Any advice that you would give young people today, young men, young women listening to you and I have this conversation, what kind of advice would you give them? And I don't mean advice like, because I don't take advice very well, you know that about me, I don't like taking advice. But maybe what tips or what based on everything you've learned, what would you share with?
Neil J Meyer:them. The thing that comes right to my mind is just be you, it is good enough. It took me a long time to be me in the presence of, first of all, women, because I had a bad upbringing. There were still some barriers there, and that's where my marriages suffered. But to be you, be able to be you in the presence of other men and have the confidence to do so. If somebody doesn't like you, well, that's their problem, that's not your problem. Worry about what other people think, worry what you think. Have respect for other people. Require respect from them too, though. Yeah. Mutual respect, yeah, but BU is the first thing that comes to my mind, and then so much follows with that, Because then you get more to learn how to follow your heart, yeah, to follow your real inner self.
Mark Wolak:Yeah.
Neil J Meyer:And that's really my quest and what it's been. I just want to find out more about me. Yeah, when I feel like this way, I think like this way, I hurt, like this sometimes. Yeah, when I feel like this way, I think like this way, I hurt, like this sometimes yeah, and so I was just interested because I think that deep diving the self is about the most interesting place that you're going to find.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, because it's you. I've learned from you and from others that a really great starting point is to say I love me. I love who I am, with all my faults, with all my problems, with all my regrets. Just love me.
Neil J Meyer:Boy, oh boy, you've got to start with loving yourself, because you can't love anybody else.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, you and I have laughed about this, but one of the things that I did and I learned it from adults around me, family members, leaders is I would walk around carrying a cross. I felt I had to carry a cross, whether that was a child of poverty, or whether that was a person who had self-doubt, or if I had an injury, like you know, I was hurt. I would carry that cross around and drag that cross around and carry that cross around and you and I have found a way to have conversations very comfortably, saying I'm putting that cross down now you see, that came from our upbringing yeah, we're brought up in shame and guilt and and uh, but yeah yeah, I feel that's where that came from.
Neil J Meyer:I spent the rest of my life trying to recover from that.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, but putting that cross down is a good strategy, right? Because then if you lay that down, whatever that is, you know, and for me it would have been shame from a divorce or not feeling like I was good enough at work. You know, Lay that cross down right. Yeah, Let it go is the word that I was good enough at work. You know, lay that cross down right.
Neil J Meyer:Yeah, let it go is the word that I use. Let it go, it doesn't mean anything. Quit second-guessing yourself. Just keep on going forward and do the best you can. Boy, I can't do any better than that.
Mark Wolak:So we ask all our participants in the radio program favorite music. What's your favorite music?
Neil J Meyer:Oh, still, classic rock and roll. Classic rock and roll, classic rock and roll.
Mark Wolak:Do you have an artist or two that you really enjoy?
Neil J Meyer:I never really took the time as a kid to learn my artists, what their names are, what the songs are. I just know when I hear it I love it. Yeah, like Animals was really powerful when I was young. Yeah, that's where they emphasize being you in some of their songs. Yeah, yeah.
Mark Wolak:So did you have like an eight-track tape deck in your car? I did, yeah, I did. What were some eight-track sounds? Oh boy, then there would have been the Animals would have been one of them.
Neil J Meyer:Animals would have been one of them. And what's some of those female artists? I had a lot of. I liked female artists, you did, of course the Buckman girls really liked it. Of course the Buckman girls really liked it. I liked Petula Clark for Ballantown. But a lot of women artists.
Mark Wolak:I just can't think of them, right now what the names are, so female vocalists of that era.
Neil J Meyer:And I was born and raised on the farm and the cows always liked milk better. When you played rock and roll oh they did. My dad said they played better when you played rock and roll oh they did. My dad said they played better when you played waltzes but I said they did better with rock and roll.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, that's great. Well, anything that you wish, I would have asked you Anything that you feel important to share or to say before we sign off.
Neil J Meyer:I, I can't think of anything right now. Okay.
Mark Wolak:But it wasn't too bad. It wasn't like going to the dentist.
Neil J Meyer:You know, I'd invite you to come up again if you want. I want to, because the second half I'm just worn, yeah, and I'm not as sharp, yeah, and you need a break and I'm just not doing as well.
Joe Boyle:did and, by the way, mark, you did a really nice job with that and I can tell you guys are close friends.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, it's been a wonderful friendship over the decades. Recently, Neil was diagnosed with an illness and he decided to spend his last weeks and months with his family and his friends, and I had the opportunity to do this interview with him in September, and I'm just so grateful. I sure wish I could have met him.
Joe Boyle:Sounds like a heck of a guy.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, you know somebody that really spent time working on himself and wanting to be a better man, and that's a great benchmark for us as we do our male friendship series. What stood out to me?
Joe Boyle:was when he said you know, I love delving into who I am, because there's nothing more interesting than that.
Mark Wolak:It's really a wonderful perspective, isn't it? Yeah?
Joe Boyle:But also, you know, be yourself, let go of the guilt, love yourself and be yourself around other men. You know, and you know, if we could all do that, life would be better for us, our kids, our people around us.
Mark Wolak:Yeah, I really agree with that. Well, thank you, Joe, and it was fun to bring Neil into our world of stories in life, and thank you for your service, neil.
Joe Boyle:Yeah absolutely. He wanted to be a paratrooper yeah, I wish he could. He was too young that I was a paratrooper, and it's something I'll never forget. Yeah, paratrooper, and it's something I'll never forget, yeah.
Mark Wolak:Take care, Neil.
Joe Boyle:Our music for this episode was to love somebody by the animals off their greatest hits album from 1963. We also had Steve Miller band fly like an Eagle off the album with the same name from 1976. We also had my love, petula Clark's hit single from 1965. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Please join us again next time on Stories in Life on the radio with Mark and Joe and visit our website at stories in life Dot buzzsproutcom or email us at stories in life podcast at gmailcom.
